My bad boys:D english 
yeah problem is that SA objective works like in H1. I was so pissed when I play showdown mission in bankog like 15 minutes to get my target with assasin which was in Jordan flor and isolated them and when I throw knife on target, she spoted me and objective is gone. Iam not sure that behavior apply on all SA objective or only on SANF
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Ah, ok, I stand corrected then, didnât know that was happening on that version of the PO. Personally, Iâd like to have the dart guns exempted from that particular one, but whatevs.
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The âcollateral kill - firearmsâ objective still doesnât work, right? Iâm finally attempting Freelancerâs hardcore mode and would rather not make any bad decisions here
Because itâs a video game challenge. Itâs not real life. If you want to use that type of real life logic, then killing anyone who spots you without alerting anyone else should also have you reverse and keep SA. You kill an innocent person that will not spoil your identity, just like a target, then the same logic should happen.
I did prefer hitman 2016 SA rules to be more challenging and fun. It made it feel more like a video game.
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No, not at all. Even in video game logic, the current system that the main campaign has now, where the targets and the targets only can be killed to maintain SA even if they see you do something illegal, so long as they warn no one, SA is maintained, because the result is exactly the same as if they didnât see you. Even in 2016, the original way they had it made no sense, hence why they changed that for H2, and it was the right decision, one that needs to translate over to Freelancerâs SA challenge.
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It wasnât about sense, it was about challenge. Be like a ghost, never seenâŚever.
They changed it cuz so many ppl complained. If nobody complained, it wouldnât have changed because that was their vision of what the parameters of SA should be. So ioi changed it to appease the complaints.
No idea what youâre talking about. SA is still SA in freelancer. Can you elaborate?
Thatâs not âtotallyâ true. You can be spotted trespassing by the target, have him tell someone and if you donât get caught, you can kill that target to reverse and save SA.
Proof:
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I may be unaware of some particular issue, but itâs been working fine for me at least since the last patch? Just gotta remember that only a non-target NPC is considered collateral and use a Piercing firearm.
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I wouldnât necessarily say that the fact that SA worked the way it did in 2016 means it was their vision. Their âvisionâ can be heavily influenced by timelines and deadlines.
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Itâs always worked for me since day 1. I prefer the striker/matador double Kill but Iâve used a piercing sniper as well.
You just have to make sure that you do kill the target first before the second npc dies otherwise it doesnât register properly.
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Thatâs irrelevant. Firstly, thatâs not a difficult challenge, and it disrupts a playerâs style. Suppose the player wanted to shoot the target in the face while standing in front of them? They lose SA, for an NPC that was supposed to die and hadnât had a chance to tell anyone theyâd seen you. The entire purpose of not being seen doesnât matter to an NPC thatâs already supposed to die. Suppose a player shoots down a chandelier onto a target, the target is in the process of turning, and the player shooting is caught in the field of vision at the last second, and SA is voided, how was that fair?
And secondly, how would that argument of it being a challenge hold up when one of the scripted kill methods with Jordan Cross has you sit right in front of him with a gun pointed at him, have a full conversation for over a minute about how youâre going to kill him, then do so and still have SA?
Huh, I seem to remember spending a great deal of time pointing out how that very thing was the reason why IOI got rid of the electrocution phone, while it was insisted that that wasnât the case. Interesting. Either way, youâre certain thatâs why IOI got rid of it? It wasnât perhaps always their plan to get rid of it, they just hadnât figured out how yet without messing things up and by the time they did, it was about time for the second gameâs release and they figured theyâd just patch it in there since everyone was likely to play both games through that one anyway?
Yes, SA is still present, but all SA objectives, at least the ones Iâve had, have a âno bodies foundâ clause, meaning that public accidents and poisonings donât work, despite being acceptable as still SA in nearly every other mode of the game (sniper being a notable exception), and you canât even tranquilize or cause a slip to other NPCs in view of other NPCs either, invalidating the whole reason to use such methods in the first place, unless another objective requires such. It needs to be brought into Freelancer the way it is in the rest of the game, because it makes it too restrictive.
Yes, but trespassing is not an immediately actionable offense. You have to defy a security guard telling you X amount of times to follow them and leave before they turn hostile. Other illegal actions, such as being spotted holding an illegal weapon when youâre not a guard, or dragging a body, touching a switch you shouldnât touch, etc., are automatically actionable illegal actions that invalidate SA if the target sees you and alerts anybody else except another target, whom you also have to kill before they contact anyone. Being seen trespassing by a non-security NPC target who then alerts security to you, but the situation de-escalates before the guards actively begin hunting you, is an exception to the point I made because that scenario is itself an exception to the rule of being spotted performing illegal actions. My point still stands.
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Yeah sure letâs give the player with no objectives at all the same payout as the player who successfully completed them all. I mean nobody ever fails any of these objectives right?
Iâm all for some sort of easy mode in Freelancer as Iâm all for accessibility options, but expecting the same reward as someone who completed a harder version of the mission feels completely unbalanced.
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First let me say this before i show you how you contradict yourself. lol
Difficulty is irrelevant. It is still a challenge.
Another part of the complaint was that many times the target would glitch and face you when trying to fiberwire/subdue (or other ways) them. So the current way was a way to help players not get frustrated with losing SA.
A players style then can be to kill everyone and have no witnesses and still retain SA. So again, the game rules are the game rules. Thatâs how it was.
But you just said it wasnât difficult? lol
Thatâs the point, and the challenge. Donât get seen, ever. See how you just contradicted yourself? lol
If youâre talking about bodies found within SA, then ya, SA functions fine, but if youâre talking about the separate optional challenge within the contract, then no. No bodies found means NO BODIES FOUNDâŚever, in any way possible. Thatâs not part of SA. Itâs a separate thing. But with SA as a PO, bodies found works just fine.
Is that what youâre talking about?
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Dude, Iâm not even going to get into it with you. Youâre now trying to use the exact same arguments I used to explain why the electrocution phone was not a free kill in order to explain why an illogical mechanic of the game that needed to be dropped was somehow a better version of it. Iâm not bringing Urben down on my head again over that kind of nonsense.
Itâs plenty balanced. Itâs a contract to kill the targets. The amounts paid out in the objectives are not extra, they are part of the sum total being paid over the course of the entire contract, with some being withheld if certain objectives are not fulfilled. If there are no additional objectives, then there is nothing to divide the total amount from, and so the mere completion of the mission should net the player the total amount. Only the Prestige Objectives are extra. Players who want more of a restrictive challenge to earn the full amount can play the mode that gives the objectives and/or can select the POs that require them to take specific actions, while those who want to fulfill the mission entirely their way and still receive the full payout for it can play the version with no preset objectives. And thatâs how it balances out. Especially if, like Prestige, you have to achieve specific conditions to even access such a mode, ensuring everyone has to play it in its normal version for at least a certain amount before being able to get the new mode.
In the past, Iâve attempted to do it (not in hardcore) and it wasnât always reliable. Thereâs a post from someone on Reddit here talking about it: Reddit - Dive into anything
However, if you guys say it works, then Iâll trust you. Thanks.
Thatâs just your own interpretation. During the CTT objectives werenât part of the base payout and IOI only changed the way the total merces gain was displayed because it was confusing to understand how much you would gain by completing all the objectives. Mechanically it still works the same way, total gain = base payout + objectives A B C. If A, B and C donât exist, theyâre equal to zero, and your total gain would just be the base payout.
Besides that, in the long run there would be no point in playing with objectives enabled if you just wanted more merces to buy stuff, activate prestige or whatever - just switch to no-objectives mode and you would gain as much as if you did a perfect run. Not very interesting from a game design point of view, it would feel like all the work that went into creating those objectives and balancing them would have been for nothing.
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Heisenberg can correct me if Iâm wrong (and Iâm sure he will) but his argument is predicated on the fact that if you donât meet an objective, the final status screen actually says âFailedâ rather than âincompleteâ or âdid not achieveâ or something less binary. If the status is âfailedâ, heâs regarding it as non-optional and therefore part of the payout.
I tend to agree that payout is base + optional objectives, but I can understand his interpretation too. He should just preface it with âin my opinionâ or some similar qualifier.
Then i wonât say it, Iâll show it. lol
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Anything that was part of the CTT that is no longer part of Freelancer as it stands is no longer relevant.
No, thatâs not how it is. Think about it, firstly, in terms of what we are doing in Freelancer and why, and then go from there: we are accepting a contract on a group of targets from someone who set the terms of that contract. Once you accept one, anytime you go to a map thatâs included in that contract, it has its optional objectives set; they do not change even if you disconnect and play a different map first and then come back to it. They are steric, unlike the prestige objectives, which change after each mission and whichever one you pick stays with you regardless of which map you take. This means that the prestige objectives are bonuses, added to the overall amount being paid for the contract, and not part of its original offered total. The optional objectives, however, are.
Because Freelancer is set up to require going to multiple different locations to fulfill the contract, Diana is dispersing the payment for the job accordingly, portions for each mission completed. The base pay amount is simply the amount that the client is agreeing to pay so long as the job gets done in some manner, period. However, the static nature of the optional objectives indicates that those are actions they want the agent to take, and if they are not taken, they will withhold part of the funds due to that failure to comply with their terms; no different than the ICA deducting from the total payment in C:47 and BM when suits were left behind or witnesses needed to be paid off. If we are to get the total amount the client is offering, we have to follow the requests made. We still get paid for doing it any old way, but they still deduct from the offered amount when itâs not done as requested. Only the prestiges are actual bonus pay.
Itâs not just about the money to not play the objectives; itâs also about being able to complete the mission however you want without any part of it being labeled as failed just because you didnât also kill 3 guards with a shotgun. Imagine if you will, that like the prestige objectives, you could toggle the optional ones on and off; unlike the prestige, which are added to any mission you choose, the optional ones, as mentioned before, are unique to that particular mission in that particular contract, so the amount paid for their completion is part of the total being paid for that mission overall. If you toggle the optional objectives off, and the base pay thatâs independent of the objectives is, say, 500 Mercers, and you toggle off all three objectives that offer 1000 each, the payout for the mission in a mode that allows such action should then be 3500.
Too bad. They shouldnât have been added in to begin with. The inclusion of the objectives is the biggest disappointment and greatest hinderance to the full potential enjoyment Freelancer could have had. When it was first announced, it seemed in essence to be like contracts mode, only one generated by the game itself instead of other players, and one which would eternally renewable and replayable because of the random generation aspect, while still adhering to a quasi-storyline about hunting down the leaders in order to take out the syndicates. Full freedom to play an endlessly renewing mission of seek and destroy in any way you want while also earning money like an actual hitman for the first time since BM so you can buy more gear or just feel accomplished. Then we learned about the objectives and how you not only donât get full payment if you donât complete them, but your final score will show you as having failed an objective, an unacceptable outcome for those who play completionist or perfectionist. If such a mode negates the work that went into the objectives being made, then the lesson would be to not hinder what would have been a true masterpiece with unnecessary complications. Youâd think the poor reception to ETA would have been a clue.
Precisely.
In fairness, Iâll concede that it is still only in the realm of opinion, but itâs the most logical one if you are to keep in mind that there is a semi-story at work with Freelancer, and how the concept of a contract and stipulations to that contract work, especially when considering the static nature of the optional objectives vs the versatile nature of the prestige objectives as I mentioned earlier.
Phew, that was all a lot. Thanks actually, you guys; agree or disagree, it felt good to precisely describe my frustrations in this matter in this way. Havenât properly let it out in months.
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True, but I mostly mentioned that to underline that while how itâs displayed has changed, how it works mechanically is still the same.
Keyword âmechanicallyâ. What youâre describing is your own interpretation of how Freelancer works story-wise based on lore, what Iâm describing are the game mechanics. Itâs pointless to compare lore and mechanics because they donât work the same at all.
Itâs not about the money for you because you probably care more about perfection than merces (thatâs merces btw not mercers :x ), but any other player will just see one mode where they have to play following a particular set of rules to get full payout, and one mode where they donât have to. Guess which one would be played and which one would fade into oblivion. Kinda like, if youâre offered money when you do extra work, and you see that one guy gets the same amount to do the same job except he gets to go home without doing the extra work, youâre probably not gonna be very pleased with the money theyâre paying you.
Contracts mode works exactly the same way. You can technically play a contract any way you want, but if it has âno disguise changeâ and âno pacificationsâ as complications, youâre not gonna get 5 stars if you donât do it as a SONKO. Iâm guessing youâre probably not playing many contracts that arenât any/anys?
Wait what, was the ETA really been poorly received? Like did IOI actually communicate on this? I was under the impression they let it die because they wanted to focus on Freelancer.
Well, happy to help I guess :x
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For the sake of avoiding continuing the argument and bringing down one of the mods on the thread, Iâm not gonna read it now. No offense, I can see you took care with your responses, but Iâll just want to argue back most likely and weâll derail again and that just happened last week with me. Iâve said my piece and thatâs enough for now and Iâm sure Iâve got the picture on your views. Weâll probably come back to this later anyway, but imma skip for now.